One crucial item not included in the tables is the length of the connecting tunnels that would be required. From Google maps and some eyball estimates against the map scales, I get the following estimates for the first half of the list:

Nipigon - Superior: 25 mi (16' / mi.)

Superior - Huron: 0 mi (18' at Soo Locks, Sault St. Marie)

Superior - Michigan: 33 mi (0.5' / mi)

Nipissing - Huron: 40 mi (1.5' / mi)

Simcoe - Huron: 20 mi (6.8' / mi)

Winnipegosis - Manitoba: 2 mi (9.5 ' / mi)

First of all, to utilize the elevation difference between Lake Superior and Lake Michigan, you have to build a channel connecting the two lakes. The channel has to be essentially flat in grade for most of the length, with elevation drop only in very short distance. The cost of such channel will be enormous, if it is even feasible. Otherwise, why not build a channel from Lake Superior to Atlantic Ocean, surely there is more elevation between the two.

Secondly, the generation/pumping capacity is limited by, not the lake capacity, but the channel capacity. To fully utilize the lake capacity, you need the channel that is enormous wide and deep, whichwill also be enormously expensive.

As additional cyclical renewable energy is added to the grid, pumped hydro or pumped storage will become a critical tool in efficiently using that energy and maintaining system stability. However, few if any entities are looking at this need since the contractual structures are not there to support it. Look at the difficulty the Lake Elsinore, LEAPS project has had and seems to be only able to go forward as a "unique transmission project" with possible revenues from the CAISO. High head, low flow systems not connected to any natural waterway could mitigate the environmental and regulatory issues, especially if covered or sealed reservoirs are used. There are many locations throughout the US where these types of facilities could be located close to renewable generation locations to minimize transmission losses and provide generation into the same locations as the renewable generation is located. First market and institutional changes need to be implemented that recognized and value the characteristics of pumped storage or pumped hydro.

Fourthly, there are natural channels between the lakes in some of the cases. In order to force the water flow through the new man-made channel, you would have dam or restrict the natural channel. Another very expensive if not impossible task.

Pump storage can be built in small scale at selected locations for good reasons.

Periods of low precipitation have already had a measurable negative impact on North American hydro-electric production in the last decade. Re-using the water helps overcome this.

Of course, the impact of less flow downstream of any selected resevoir site would have to be studied, but I suspect it would be environmentally less than having to make up any electrical supply shortfall with NG, coal or wind turbines.

See - http://www.nypa.gov/facilities/niagara.htm

One possible solution I see to this is using the local water tower to perform the "storage" function on a smaller and more efficient scale. Most towns have some sort of reservoir or aquifer with a pumping system to move it to hundreds of feet above. These systems are already in place and have their maintenance budgeted for already. Simply placing a tower fed turbine to 'dump' water back into the reservoir would generate power at much higher efficiency with much less transmission cost. For the most part, these towers have excess capacity that's rarely used beyond 30% so draining it another 50% through a turbine during peak times and pumping it back up during off peak wouldn't require new tanks or towers unless the already treated water was headed back into an untreated reservior.

Also, most of today's water supply systems are already ran by full SCADA systems so little additional control would be needed. Anybody know how much unused water tower capacity there is in the US?

I think the volume flow rates you need to generate at any significant output would need towers alot bigger (higher and larger capacity) than currently used. Also this is drinking water so not the same as letting a river flow through a turbine.

But not problems that could not be overcome but not sure the scale is large enough. Most towns only have one tower. For this application I think they would need many many more.

Malcolm

Lake Erie to Lake Ontario. Ontario Power Generation is currently building a 10 km tunnel from the Niagara River above the Falls (Level of Lake Erie) to its reservoir above Sir Adam Beck Generating Station.

I suppose it could be converted to a pumped storage scheme (don't think it is right now) but like Xuguang Leng I think it would be very expensive. Also the volume of water flowing down the river would be reduced. There are concerns that if any more water is taken from the Niagara River there will not be much of a Falls to see.

Like many of these schemes - if they were feasible we'd already be doing it.

Many things can be done. The acid test is whether it is really worth doing them.

Given that the cost would only be a couple TEEs and valves, a positive displacement turbine generator and some controls, how can you pass on whatever scale it offers? That's not even counting the 'distributed' factor and the distributed ownership it offers.

My town has two towers for 12,000 people and I know the operator. He replied that he gets overtime to cycle the level in the towers twice a year because otherwise they never change more than a small percentage. Using rough-guess numbers, that's storing about 15,000 gallons to a height of 150 feet for each 6,000 rural people in the country each night. Anybody?

Seems low to me, have I an error in there?

A car is just an engine/gearbox 4 wheels and a few metal/plastic panels....you could probably make one in your garage. but to make 20,000 a week at a price people can afford you must have a mass production plant.

Why don't you see that exactly the same economic principles apply to generating electricity?

The capital cost of generating and collecting small numbers of megawatts (even if the energy is free) is much higher than generating large numbers of megawatts from one plant.

The idea of distributed generation is not new....it has been around for a hundred years....and in fact is the way generation was done before Tesla figured out how to move large amounts of electricicyt over long distances without substantial I-squared R losses The reason we do not do it is because it does not work and is too expensive.. It has nothing to do with the technology or fuel source but everything to do with economics.

We could operate a distributed system right now by putting a diesel generator in everyones house.....except not everyone has a house. Could the average 50 story condo dweller really produce all the electricity his or her household needs....or the electricicyt to run the essential elevator banks 24 hours a day 7 days a week without interruption, or the electricicyt needed to pump water several hundred feet up the building? Such buildings (of which there are many) would depend on a grid system It is grossly inefficient from both a capital use perspective and a maintenance perspective.

Malc

I don't know how much a water tower costs but I'd guess for the type of engineered structure and foundation you need you are looking at capital costs of over a million dollars...I will be pleased to be corrected on that but this is not your average farm building.

So we would need 2000 of them for our rural community. That is 2 billion dollars of infrastructure to produce 2000 x 10kWh That is only 20 Megawatts hours

I could build you a 1000 MW nuclear plant for that. You would get 50 times more output for the same dollars in.

So by Lens numbers you would need thousands of these facilities and that assumes you have enough ditributed other energy to get the water up there in the first place.

Like many of these ideas they sure sound promising but economically very hard to justify.

There is a reason we buy power from the grid...it is cheap, it is convenient, we don't have to do the maintenance, and it is very reliable.

Believe it or not exactly the same reasons why we buy cars made in a mass production plant rather than kit cars we build in our garage.

They call it mass production :)

Same reason it is cheaper to buy your goods from big retail outlets that small stores...economies of scale. I like corner stores and I pay more for stuff because I use them rather than Wally Marts. As long as folks know that this is going to cost them much much more then these ides are good. Problem is people want cheap electricity judging by the noise that is made whenever electricity prices go up.

malc

If an ordinary car/truck has 200 HP, that is nearly 150 kW, quite a bit actually. Now generating electricity via liquid fuel is economically problematic, but what if it is only done a few key minutes per day? The infrastructure is already there, and the usage is low, so the only real cost would be the fuel and the hook up.

If a PHEV has .2 kW-hr of Ultra-Cap storage, that could supply a 20 kW need for 30 seconds or so, long enough to turn on certain pieces of equipment. The car's batteries could recharge the ultra Cap in about 1-5 minutes. Maybe this peak-clipping to lower capacity needs could have a name, NEGAPACITY ?

Electricity is still cheap. There is no doubt it could be even cheaper but I know of no other product that has such versatility usefulness and practicality than electricity.

For what it does for my household - it is dirt cheap.

I pay about $80 a month including a Government imposed tax of 6%. For that I can run.

Computers and internet - for pennies a day Television and enetertainment - for pennies a day Washing Machine and dryer (gas) - used 4 to 5 times a day 50c a day including cost of pumping water from a 40 foot deep well. Pumping my water - actually save money there as I have no water bill but without electricity I would be bucketting it up or hand pumping. Microwave and oven - 50 cents a day max for cooking and preparing all my food. Refrigeration and freezing - keep all my food fresh and stores about three months future supply - pennies a day. Vacuum clean my house - pennies a day Heat my house (gas furnace - electric fan) about 50c a day in winter - nothing in summer. Run all the electric power tools I want - pennies a day Hair dryers curling irons etc - make wife and daughter look stunning - pennies a day. Run all kinds of small appliances for - pennies a day.

All that for about the cost of two cups of coffee for my wife and I a day.

Dirt cheap Len - just dirt cheap. Nothing else I use even comes close.

Malcolm